E&OE TRANSCRIPT
RADIO INTERVIEW
ABC RN BREAKFAST
WEDNESDAY, 27 NOVEMBER 2019
CATHY VAN EXTEL: Mark Butler is the Shadow Energy Minister, good morning.
MARK BUTLER: Good morning, Cathy.
VAN EXTEL: Now the PM, as we heard there, is standing by Angus Taylor, that’s after being briefed by police, doesn’t that suggest that he’s pretty confident that the Minister doesn’t have a case to answer? There’s nothing to see here, move along?
BUTLER: Well we don’t know what the conversation was between him and the New South Wales Police Commissioner. all we do know is that yesterday the New South Wales Police announced that they have launched a Strike Force into the circumstances surrounding the use of dodgy travel figures, the only time in which they were used was in correspondence on Angus Taylor’s official letterhead signed by Angus Taylor.
This involves the possible commission of three different offences under the New South Wales Crimes Act, two of which carry a prison term of up to ten years and the third of which carries a prison term of up to two years. Now how possibly a Minister can continue to be able to operate as a Minister of the Crown while a police investigation into those criminal offences is underway is utterly baffling; completely out of line with the way in which previous prime ministers, as recently as Malcolm Turnbull, have operated the ministerial standards.
VAN EXTEL: The Minister has lashed at Labor as hypocrites, he says he won’t be reproached by – and I quote – “the party of Aldi bags and wine boxes full of cash” he’s got a point hasn’t he? It’s a bit rich of Labor to be lecturing the Minister when it comes to integrity.
BUTLER: The Minister is now subject to a New South Wales Police Strike Force involving three potential criminal offences carrying very substantial jail terms. In the past, as recently as Malcolm Turnbull’s Prime Ministership, Mal Brough stood aside when a police investigation was underway involving him. Arthur Sinodinos, Malcolm Turnbull’s closest colleague in the Cabinet, stood aside after ICAC initiated an investigation involving him. Sussan Ley stood aside over a departmental investigation into travel expenses.
The idea that Angus Taylor can continue in office while a Strike Force has been launched into the possible commission of three very serious criminal offences makes an utter mockery of ministerial standards and ministerial accountability under this Prime Minister.
VAN EXTEL: The fact that’s it’s a strike force excited Labor and it does sound pretty ominous and dramatic. Just because it’s being called a strike force, doesn’t necessarily mean it’s going to be a major investigation. Could you be exaggerating the significance of this police probe? As I understand a strike force could be as few as one officer.
BUTLER: All we’re doing is reflecting the statement from the New South Wales Police. They are investigating circumstances surrounding the possible commission of three very serious criminal offences, as I said, involving very serious jail terms. And that’s over and above the question that still hangs over Angus Taylor over whether or not he has deliberately misled the Parliament when he said that he directly downloaded those figures from the City of Sydney council’s website when it is utterly clear, on all of the metadata evidence and on the basis of what is in the public internet archives, including the national libraries, that is simply not the case.
So this Minister has very serious questions to answer and the idea that he can continue as a Minister of the Crown while a very serious police investigation is underway, whether it is one police officer or one hundred is not to the point, a serious police investigation is underway and all of the custom and practice surrounding the ministerial standards would suggest he must be stood aside.
VAN EXTEL: As you say the Minister has repeated to Parliament that neither he nor any members of his staff have altered the documents in question, why don’t you believe him? It’s a pretty unequivocal statement to Parliament.
BUTLER: The very serious statement he made to Parliament was that he directly downloaded that document from the City of Sydney Council website. Now the metadata, released by the council, shows that the report was downloaded onto the website in November 2018 and has not been altered since. So the correct version of the travel figures has been up on their website since November 2018 according to council metadata. The public internet archives and also the Trove database, maintained by the National Library, also confirm that right through the course of 2019 that only the correct version of travel figures were on the website. So Angus Taylor’s suggestion that he directly downloaded the false figures from the City of Sydney council website is utterly inconsistent with all of the evidence on the public record.
VAN EXTEL: Are you saying he misled Parliament?
BUTLER: I am very much saying that he misled the Parliament and he repeated that mislead this week. The question of where he got the documents is unclear.
VAN EXTEL: Well who do you think came up with the figures?
BUTLER: That’s a matter for the Minister to say. The only thing we can be absolutely sure of is that he did not get those figures from the City of Sydney council website. He did not get them from there but that is what he has maintained, time and time again in the Parliament, which is the mislead.
VAN EXTEL: Certainly no-one is suggesting that Angus Taylor falsified the document himself. He did sign the letter to Clover Moore, which included those wrong figures. Why is that a sackable offence? Especially given that he’s apologised to the Lord Mayor.
BUTLER: Because, in our view, he’s deliberately misled the Parliament about the origin of those figures. He tried to pretend that these figures were from the City of Sydney and he bore no blame for the use of patently false figures in an attempt to influence the exercise of the public duties of the Lord Mayor and the city council. What is clear is his job as the Minister is to report truly and faithfully the circumstances of this scandal and he’s failed to do that.
VAN EXTEL: Now Labor has referred this matter to the police, not Clover Moore, who is the target of the document. Why shouldn’t people see this as an opportunistic witch-hunt by the opposition, given that you’ve been gunning for Angus Taylor, almost from the start, that you see him as one of the government’s weakest links?
BUTLER: We certainly do see him as one of the Government’s weak links and I think his own colleagues see that, but that’s not the point. Our job is to hold this Government to account. My job as the Shadow Minister is to hold the Minister to account. We’ve been carefully going through the circumstances of this scandal and when it became clear to us there was the possible commission of criminal offences under the New South Wales Crimes Act it was our responsibility to report that to the New South Wales Police. Now from the police’s point of view, it wouldn’t matter whether it was reported by the Federal Labor Party or by the Sydney City Council or by some concerned citizen in New South Wales. Once a report has been made their job is to consider whether or not the circumstances justify a formal investigation. They have obviously made that decision by launching this strike force.
VAN EXTEL: I want to go to the conversation between the Prime Minister and the New South Wales Police Commissioner as we said, the PM took the decision not to stand down Angus Taylor after he spoke with Mick Fuller. Would that have been an inappropriate conversation for the Prime Minister to have with the top police chief?
BUTLER: That’s a matter for the Prime Minister, I must say I think we were all surprised when he said instead of responding to our questions in Question Time, he was going to make a phone call to the New South Wales Police Commissioner. That’s a matter for the Prime Minister, obviously, he then came in and reported he’d done so and on the basis of that without outlining what exactly transpired between the two of them he indicated he wasn’t of a mind to stand the Minister aside in spite of the very clear practice of Prime Ministers, including John Howard, Malcolm Turnbull and many others besides.
VAN EXTEL: Given that there is a Government Minister involved though do you have any concerns that this conversation actually took place?
BUTLER: It was our view that it was out of the ordinary that the Prime Minster would tell the Parliament that instead of making a decision on the face of the statement made by the New South Wales Police that he would make such a phone call, but that ultimately is a matter for the Prime Minister.
VAN EXTEL: Certainly he advised Parliament that they simply talked about the nature and substance of the allegations. Are you comfortable with that scope?
BUTLER: We don’t really know what the circumstances of the conversation were and we’re not suggesting there was anything untoward at all. That’s a matter for the Prime Minister to decide who he calls. Our complaint is that on the face of it the New South Wales Police has launched a very serious investigation into the possible commission of criminal offences surrounding the letter that Angus Taylor sent to the Lord Mayor of Sydney. And on any view of precedent, any view of the proper application of ministerial standards, that means Angus Taylor should be stood aside at least for the duration of the investigation.
VAN EXTEL: In recent weeks though Angus Taylor finally appeared to be making some progress with the states on the development of energy policy. If he was to stand aside or if he’d been sacked, what would that do for the energy and climate policy of this country?
BUTLER: Well hopefully it would allow the policy to be handed to a Minister who would be able to achieve something. I mean all that Angus Taylor has seen in his twelve or fifteen months as Minister is power prices continue to go up, wholesale prices are up by around twenty per cent or more since Angus Taylor was made Minister. We’ve seen –
VAN EXTEL: But surely this would step back the process here. I mean it’s a step-back surely that the country can’t afford.
BUTLER: All that Angus Taylor achieved last week with the Energy Minister’s COAG meeting was the final nail in the coffin of any hope for a national energy policy. We were almost there last year before Angus Taylor and Tony Abbott launched an ambush against the National Energy Guarantee, a policy which Scott Morrison and Josh Frydenberg assured Australians, based on their modelling, would see power prices come down by about $550. Angus Taylor has been a disaster for national energy policy. Under his watch, power prices are going up, emissions are going up. The only thing coming down are jobs and investment in renewable energy, which has collapsed by about sixty per cent this year alone.
VAN EXTEL: Mark Butler, thank you for your time today.
BUTLER: Thanks Cathy.
ENDS